Engine swap on D-series/SM possible?

[Bret Ludwig]

Is there any other engine which is a reasonable swap for a D-series or
SM?

[Adrian]

Post by Bret Ludwig
Is there any other engine which is a reasonable swap for a D-series or
SM?

Umm, why would you?

The D engine is *bomb*proof, and the SM engine is two-thirds of the point
of an SM.

People have put diseasels and other inappropriate things into Ds and SMs,
but...

[Bret Ludwig]

Post by Adrian

Post by Bret Ludwig
Is there any other engine which is a reasonable swap for a D-series or
SM?

Umm, why would you?
The D engine is *bomb*proof, and the SM engine is two-thirds of the point
of an SM.
People have put diseasels and other inappropriate things into Ds and SMs,
but...

Which diesel went in a D-series?? A CX I presume?

The D-series four is "bombproof" as you say, but one might want a
little more power. The Maser V6 in the SM is dogshit and I greatly
enjoyed seeing one sawn up for a cutaway display for a vo-tech school
some years back.

[Adrian]

Post by Bret Ludwig

Post by Adrian

Post by Bret Ludwig
Is there any other engine which is a reasonable swap for a D-series
or SM?

Umm, why would you?
The D engine is *bomb*proof, and the SM engine is two-thirds of the
point of an SM.
People have put diseasels and other inappropriate things into Ds and
SMs, but...

Which diesel went in a D-series?? A CX I presume?

C35D. It's basically the same block as the D/CX pushrod boat-anchor, and
the same 2175cc as the DS21/CX2200/CX2200D, but rotates in the DS direction
- CX motors rotate the other way.

Post by Bret Ludwig
The D-series four is "bombproof" as you say, but one might want a
little more power.

140bhp from a 23ie not enough? How very odd. My XM turbo is 150bhp and
plenty quick enough.

Post by Bret Ludwig
The Maser V6 in the SM is dogshit and I greatly enjoyed seeing one sawn
up for a cutaway display for a vo-tech school some years back.

Odd. I always understood it to be a superb engine - if cared for
sympathetically by somebody who understands it properly, and if the various
developments are applied. <shrug>

[Bret Ludwig]

Can the CX engine be built "reverse rotation" or are there two
different block assemblies?

Many GM engines can "go either way" with cam and distributor gear
changes-SB and BB Chevy, Corvair-as can the Detroit Diesels. (Which
mostly weigh more than an entire DS.) I suppose a Chevy II four as
well, which would probably fit in a D. Many Hondas are wrong-way too.

Reverse rotation is why the Mazda rotary wasn't installed in the SM:
otherwise it would have been the common swap. In the US a SM wasn't
worth the price of an engine overhaul for a couple of decades at least.

Are any swaps common in Europe?

[Adrian]

Post by Bret Ludwig
Can the CX engine be built "reverse rotation" or are there two
different block assemblies?

The D lump uses a different block to the CX. I'm sure you could rebuild a D
block with CX25 liners/crank/whatever with a custom made cam, but why
bother? The CX25ie is "only" 10bhp more than the DS23ie. Helluva lot of
work for not much benefit. And that's before you've rigged all the L-Jet
injection in. Yes, the turbo's got another 30bhp, but even more hassle.
Better to start off with the D lump and use old-fashioned tuning.

Oh - and the CX 2200D/C35D is 66bhp.

Post by Bret Ludwig
otherwise it would have been the common swap.

TFFT.

Post by Bret Ludwig
Are any swaps common in Europe?

Luckily, no.

But I do know of at least one D with an SM engine.

I s'pose you could follow the original design philosophy, and use an air-
cooled flat 6 as Citroen were originally intending. Now where on earth
could you get one of them?

[Bret Ludwig]

Post by Adrian

Post by Bret Ludwig
Can the CX engine be built "reverse rotation" or are there two
different block assemblies?

The D lump uses a different block to the CX. I'm sure you could rebuild a D
block with CX25 liners/crank/whatever with a custom made cam, but why
bother? The CX25ie is "only" 10bhp more than the DS23ie. Helluva lot of
work for not much benefit. And that's before you've rigged all the L-Jet
injection in. Yes, the turbo's got another 30bhp, but even more hassle.
Better to start off with the D lump and use old-fashioned tuning.
Oh - and the CX 2200D/C35D is 66bhp.

The CX engine is probably more common than the D in Europe. In the US
I would run carbs if possible, or aftermarket EFI. L-Jet is a PITA.
Are DS23 engines still available commonly?

Post by Adrian

Post by Bret Ludwig
Are any swaps common in Europe?

Luckily, no.
But I do know of at least one D with an SM engine.
I s'pose you could follow the original design philosophy, and use an air-
cooled flat 6 as Citroen were originally intending. Now where on earth
could you get one of them?

Corvair. And it's reverse rotation stock! But I can't imagine it would
fit.

Years ago there was talk of a Porsche 917 replica with a Lycoming
GSIO-480 with its planetary gearbox removed. Hmmmm.

[Frank Kemper]

Post by Bret Ludwig
The D-series four is "bombproof" as you say, but one might want a
little more power. The Maser V6 in the SM is dogshit and I
greatly enjoyed seeing one sawn up for a cutaway display for a
vo-tech school some years back.

Back in the 70's the boss of the Citroen garage which serviced my
Dad's GS Break used to drive an SM with a D-Series engine.

Given the fact that an extraordinary car deserves an extraordinary
engine, if I were a genius of a mechanic I would try to install one
of the following engines into a DS:

Toyota Prius (the complete hybrid powertrain)
Mazda RX Rotary engine
Subaru flat 4 engine /w turbocharger.

One might also try the 3.0 litre V6 out of a late Xantia.

Chances seem reasonable that all of these engines would fit under the
bonnet.

Frank

[Adrian]

Post by Frank Kemper
Given the fact that an extraordinary car deserves an extraordinary
engine, if I were a genius of a mechanic I would try to install one
Toyota Prius (the complete hybrid powertrain)

Hmmm. Interesting thought, but I think it may be monumentally underpowered.
There's been at least one electric D.

Post by Frank Kemper
Mazda RX Rotary engine
Subaru flat 4 engine /w turbocharger.
One might also try the 3.0 litre V6 out of a late Xantia.

Also from the XM (late 24v)/C5/C6...

MMmmm. What about the new C6/S-type/XJ/Disco 2.7HDi V6?

Or Alfa 24v v6?

Post by Frank Kemper
Chances seem reasonable that all of these engines would fit under the
bonnet.

I suspect that the first problem you'd have would be one of rotation
direction.

[Bret Ludwig]

Adrian wrote:
<<snip>>

Post by Adrian
I suspect that the first problem you'd have would be one of rotation
direction.

Yup.

The Mazda rotary would be perfect but getting it to run backwards
would be impossible.

With most piston engines, direction of rotation is limited by the
accessories, particularly the oil pump. GM engines with distributor
driven pumps can be run reverse by changing the cam and distributor
gears. This includes the small and big block Chevy V8's, the Corvair ,
and probably the Chevy II four cylinder which is half a small block
Chevy.

Many Honda engines are reverse rotation, or so I am told.

Reworking the transaxle may or not be possible, to allow a standard
rotation engine to be fitted. This was done on VWs a lot-for mid engine
and Corvair swaps and to use Type II transaxles on Baja Bugs (Type IIs
used a reduction box at the wheel end), by flipping the ring gear.